Simple, Complex and Complicated Problems with Marty Kurtz

Jake Wagner: Hello, and welcome to the What Is Finology podcast. This is your host, Jake Wagner, and on this episode of the show, we have Marty Kurtz joining us. Marty, how are you doing today?

Marty Kurtz: Doing great, Jake, and really glad to be here.

Jake Wagner: Yeah, I'm really glad to have you. This is an exciting projects, an exciting season, and really looking forward to what it is that we're sharing with folks. My first question for you is just a little bit like, how did you know Dad and what are some of the things that you learned from him?

Marty Kurtz: That's a great question. You know, your dad and I are very similar in age. He was just a year and a half or so older than I am, so I think when we did meet, we just kind of met as peers. I was not in Denver for the origins of the CFP Marks and the ICFP. I was out in the Midwest, battling away as a life insurance person, trying to learn about financial planning. When I met your father, when I became real active in FPA, we had this bond because his background had been similar to mine, starting out in the life insurance business and learning that there was probably more to the story than we were getting, and then using that as a springboard into doing financial planning. I would say we met in the very late '90s or early 2000s.

Jake Wagner: What was that process like? What were you guys keying into that you knew wasn't quite [inaudible 00:02:25]?

Marty Kurtz: Well, it was real interesting. We were with insurance companies at an interesting time, and I think Dick probably felt the same way. I know when I joined an insurance company, I thought, "Hey, this is what I need. I'm joining a organization that's been around for 100, 125 years. They've got this down, they know exactly what they're doing, we could really learn a lot from them and really make a difference in people's lives."

Marty Kurtz: Well, what we soon realized was when we had started working with the insurance companies is, there's this thing going on called disintermediation. That's, they were seeing money leave in droves while they were building products that people could borrow against and put the money into CDs and make 15 or 17 or 19% without having a penalty from the insurance company. They were in total disarray, really being torn up.

Marty Kurtz: They were really trying to change their mode of operation, which had been for years a system called "Live, Die, Quit," which is, you went through this process with people saying they couldn't lose by buying insurance, because if you live, this happened, if you died, this happened, if you quit, this happened. Then, that kind of started to morph into a different system within the insurance companies, which was called needs-based selling. Needs-based selling was trying to do some interview process with people in order to figure out what they needed to make themselves safer, what they needed for insurance, what they needed for savings. It was this recollection that they had been one of the few savings vehicles for decades. From the '30s through the '60s, mutual funds were not very prevalent. Money market accounts didn't exist. CDs were at a very low rate and kind of inflexible and hard to do savings in. Life insurance had been this huge thing.

Marty Kurtz: All of a sudden, now there was a change. There was lots of alternatives and costs were coming down. Money was disappearing from these institutions, and they were struggling to find new ways in order to seed out who they were in the marketplace. That's where we came into the picture, and that's where financial planning, in its own way, was one of those disintermediaries, although most of the disintermediaries were other institutions. All of a sudden, this process came in and said, "No, we're going to level the playing field and make this fair."

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Jake Wagner: Making it so that there isn't a bunch of, those are some high interest rates, those are some high returns, but this is also an era of high mortgage and lending [crosstalk 00:06:07].

Marty Kurtz: Oh, yeah. The saver on short-term rates could do very well, but for the borrower, it was disaster. My father and I had a company, a little food company, and we were borrowing money at seven over prime, and prime at the time was 14, so we were borrowing at 21% to buy trucks. It was a brutal time, and-

Jake Wagner: Wow.

Marty Kurtz: Very hard to make sense of anything. I mean, inverted yield curve is a very ugly thing, not healthy for the economy.

Jake Wagner: Yeah, it is. Because now, you're one of the leaders of definitely practice management and life planning and a lot of these other softer words. How did you get from more of that strict insurance world, that's starting to widen their perspective a little bit, to where you are now?

Marty Kurtz: Well, and I think that's the power of the group that your father gathered around him, is, we all got into the belief that there has to be a better way for the client. It's all about the client, and even before fiduciary was an issue, the discussion was all about them, not about us. The process had to fall in line with that moral belief that we all had. Fiduciary was shaping itself a long time before it became a buzz word.

Jake Wagner: What do you mean?

Marty Kurtz: Well, it came from, it's a very basic need that humans have, that when they get advice, they want to know that it's in their best interest. What's really funny, Jake, is I've done some traveling around the world, talking to financial planners in all different corners of the world, and fiduciary is there in every one of those locations. They want to have systems, and they want to build the belief that the advice they're getting is in the client's best interest, which I think is pretty cool.

Jake Wagner: I do too. What about some of these folks, though, that are being told they might have to have this fiduciary stuff, have to act in a fiduciary capacity, but they're fee-based? I have no fee-based planners that are definitely fiduciaries, but I think that it's not an easy situation.

Marty Kurtz: No, that's right, and we're certainly not trying to cut anyone out of their living, but what has been surprising for me is, we talk a lot about the duties of fiduciary and what the definition is and what that means and how we might act in that, but really, the number one thing about the fiduciary standard is, it is the way to have a long-term relationship. We're in 30-year conversations with our clients, 30 years, 40 years, however long it lasts, until either they die or we die.

Jake Wagner: Mm-hmm (affirmative), hopefully retire.

Marty Kurtz: Or retire, yeah. Hopefully, we have some boundaries that make that relationship work, just like there might be boundaries in a marital relationship or a spiritual relationship. The same thing is true in this financial relationship we have with people, and I think this is a big part of where your dad and the group of planners that started to walk this way is, the only way we're going to be able to sustain a relationship, a two-sided relationship for 20, 30, 40 years, whatever we're given in timeframe, we need that belief, that trust, that this is an honest and fair relationship. Fiduciary is as much as about fair as it is about diligence.

Jake Wagner: Hmm, interesting.

Marty Kurtz: Trust becomes this integral factor that we have lots of discussions on, but one of the things that I think is misunderstood about trust is, people start to get to the point where they believe they can earn trust, and they think fiduciary is a way to earn trust. Well, my belief is that fiduciary is a way of protecting the gift people give us of trust. It is us being trustworthy back to their gift that they give us, that's honoring this gift they give us that says, "We are trustworthy, we are going to work for you." That's a quantum leap from where we've been in the past.

Jake Wagner: It is.

Marty Kurtz: I mean, there's always been trusting relationships, but now we're saying, it's not trusting in a transaction or in a five-year period, but it's ... Actually, at the planning center we've even discussed, "Wouldn't it be cool if 50 years from now or 75 years from now, it's different advisors, different clients, same money. How do we build systems that sustain itself over half a century or a century?"

Jake Wagner: Also continuously earn that client loyalty through the generations, too.

Marty Kurtz: Right. That's exactly right.

Jake Wagner: Well, it's because you're doing a good job for them, and you're protecting their better interests. That's for sure.

Marty Kurtz: They give you this gift, and we honor that in our work, but it's all predicated on the fact that we have this belief system that says, "No, we will be there for you."

Jake Wagner: Yeah. One of the things I heard at the InvestmentNews Icons and Innovators luncheon, there's talks beforehand, and I think it was Bill Harris of Personal Capital, was talking about also extending the fiduciary understanding not just to clients but also to employees, into the business itself. I thought that was really interesting and opened my eyes a little bit further.

Marty Kurtz: Yeah. I think that's a great way to look at it, and any partnerships we have, Jake, the people you're working with and they're working with you, you want to know that it's a level relationship.

Jake Wagner: Absolutely, and it's all about the relationship as well, at least for the folks that I like to work with.

Marty Kurtz: Exactly.

Jake Wagner: Yeah. It needs to be that warm exchange, and I feel so fortunate to have a base of clients that we can be so close, and really it creates a situation where we can make the agreement what we want, and make sure to get the job done, rather than going back and saying, "Well, here's Chapter 1, Item 2, A-sub whatever in this contract." It's more of a, "Let's make sure to create success for each other, and I'm here to be that advocate."

Marty Kurtz: It's so important, because we see this advent of, coming from uncertainty, this overwhelming sense of vulnerability is becoming more and more prevalent in our society. I think for the start of the Industrial Revolution and moving forward, we're building this wall between us and uncertainty. We were trying to narrow it down as much as we could to decrease our vulnerability, to say we're safe, we're safer in a group, in a city, with law, with fire. All these things have been built on top of each other to make it a better place to live, and now with technology, we see technology replacing the simplest acts that humans do, and us losing touch of those, moving into a more specialized world where all of us are moving in a very pointed direction on some things we do, but we have to trust in others to do so many other things.

Jake Wagner: Yeah, absolutely. That's a part of this, that money allows us to be able to have these exchanges and to make it so we can take all of our lives while only serving a portion of it.

Marty Kurtz: Right. The more dependent we get on other people, the more vulnerability we have there, the more we have to decide whether we're going to trust people or not, or trust the situation or not. Money is one of the big human inventions that help us deal with that.

Jake Wagner: Yeah. I've learned from permaculture teachers, and one of the points that a woman named Robin Francis in Australia, that she's like, "No, I don't want to do all of these things. I want to make sure to have that guy over there make my honey. I'm going to go and I'm going to do these things, and I'm going to make these exchanges happen, and I'm going to provide this value, and I'm happy and eager for the value that this other member of my community is making and contributing." It's so beautiful, exchanging value is beautiful. I think that's one of the points that I want to start to key into as we have these conversations, is just, one of Dad's tenets is that, more good is done through and with money every day in the world than nonprofit and gifting work could ever manage.

Marty Kurtz: Sure. All the little acts of kindness, yeah.

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Jake Wagner: Although sometimes, it can feel hollow. I think that's something that we need to watch out for and something I'm trying to keep an eye out for, is ways that we can exchange value that represents our values.

Marty Kurtz: Yeah, that's right. If we lose sight of purpose, it gets very hollow.

Jake Wagner: Yeah, it does.

Marty Kurtz: If we don't have the belief behind the purpose.

Jake Wagner: Do you think that a planner can just get training into being a 2 or a 3.0 focus person, or do you think that that's something that you can educate and share? Or is it just folks who are inclined to explore in these areas or are curious and join these conversations?

Marty Kurtz: Yeah. I think you can really gain skill by reading, practicing, doing, but I think with all of us, it becomes who we want to be, that soul-centering conversation we have with ourselves that says, "Who are we, and what are we trying to do?" That's what Dick was doing, was setting a higher standard, laying it out there. In his article about CFP, it was saying, "This is where we should be."

Marty Kurtz: I really believe in the little formula, Jake, of "Be, do, have." If we figure out who we're going to be, it's going to dictate what we do, which is going to dictate what we have, not the opposite way. So much of America has been, "I want to have this so I'm going to do this, and that'll make me be this." That's reverse. That's the wrong way. No, the moral formula that works is, "Be, do, have."

Marty Kurtz: I think what the commitment is, we're all with our frailties, we walk into a commitment saying, "I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this to the best of my ability. I am going to be a fiduciary planner. I'm going to be who they need, and by that, I'm going to be doing the right thing for them. Then I will have a successful"-

Jake Wagner: Then we're going to have [inaudible 00:19:58].

Marty Kurtz: Yes.

Jake Wagner: That's a great formula.

Marty Kurtz: It really is. It's really not different than, "Why, how, what." That's in a more practical world, like with Simon ...

Jake Wagner: Sinek.

Marty Kurtz: Talking about "Why, how, what." Really, why is the belief, it's the be. The how is the do, and the what is the have. That's the way the universe works.

Jake Wagner: Although a lot of times, these things are keying into a little something slightly different, and so it's nice to put them side-by-side and see how they line up, but also keep in mind how they're different.

Marty Kurtz: Exactly.

Jake Wagner: One of the reasons why I like finology and like this money stuff, is that it's about studying the commonalities.

Marty Kurtz: Right.

Jake Wagner: There's a Zig Ziglar quote that Dad really liked, which was, "Money's not the most important thing in the world, but it is up there with oxygen." Yeah. I don't go and seek out oxygen for my day, or anything like that, but I sure notice if I don't have enough.

Marty Kurtz: You bet.

Jake Wagner: Also, I notice if I've got a little bit too much, too, get a little light in the head, and decision-making gets a little poor if you're hyperventilating or whatever. Yeah.

Marty Kurtz: Absolutely.

Jake Wagner: Yeah. The relationship between the breath and money is a pretty interesting thing. Yeah. For those who are listening in, VitalFinancials, my sister Natalie Wagner, she does some stuff around the breath and money that is just amazing.

Marty Kurtz: Absolutely amazing.

Jake Wagner: How do you bring the concept of 2 and 3.0 to your business and your practice?

Marty Kurtz: Well, all of us have our own little insights or profound revelations that we've gone through that are ways we're trying to work. I, as a side note, wanted to say, I love the discussion of 3.0. I think all these things are labeled better at the end than at the beginning. We're all on this journey of where are we going. I don't think we're Alice In Wonderland, walking down into nowhere, not knowing which direction to go, but we do have multiple directions to go.

Jake Wagner: We do.

Marty Kurtz: It will be interesting to see where in the world we turn.

Jake Wagner: Well, Dad, he liked to compared finology to, I'll just do his speech here from the top for folks. Make a grid in the air, just a cross, and then if you put in the upper-left-hand box there psychology, which is about individuals. Then in the lower-left-hand box, if you put sociology, which is about groups of people, and then in that lower-right-hand box, you put economics, which is also about groups of people and their relationships with money, but that upper-right-hand box, there's nothing that goes there yet, or at least not until you have the world finology as a part of your vocabulary. Then we can start to study about what it means to exchange value between individuals and what it means to exchange value. That's pretty incredible.

Jake Wagner: What I was going to say, back to that point before, was that psychology is a very new subject. It was found and identified in the 1800s, and we all consider a given today, and there are hundreds and hundreds of different divisions and subdivisions of psychology as a general subject. The same's going to be true with finology. A part of what we're doing, especially in this first season of the What Is Finology podcast, is we're just starting to explore, see what's in the territory, and see what resonates. I try to make sure to identify when I know something is, when I see finology in action, or when I identify a 3.0 moment or scenario, I just try to make a note about that. Folks, if you do, please email me, and I would love to hear what 3.0 and finology moments you're seeing out there in the world.

Marty Kurtz: Very cool.

Jake Wagner: Yeah.

Marty Kurtz: Well, one of the ways I've explained it to myself is, I read the book The Checklist Manifesto, it's written by a surgeon. In there, he talks about, there's really three kinds of problems in the world: simple, complicated and complex. He defines simple as, a simple problem is one where there's just an immediate answer. You ask the question and there is an answer. Of course, this is oversimplifying things a little bit.

Jake Wagner: We only have so much time that we're going to share with people today, so that's ...

Marty Kurtz: Exactly. A complicated problem takes you through a process, and you're working on it, and once you get through the process, every time you come to that problem, if you just work that process, you get to the right answer. There's multiple steps. The third kind of a problem is a complex problem, and that's a problem where there is no answer, no foreseeable answer that can be predetermined through a process, other than working on each one individually and figuring out the new process for that individual complex problem, which is really the definition of relationships. It is, how do we set and help people work through problems that are of their current mind, helping them understand their history, their money history, their current condition, where they want to go, and helping them walk through that over a number of years.

Marty Kurtz: That's the change I see that's happened, that's financial planning 3.0. People used to hire us for answers, and we'd use one of the first two problem-solving situations, but those are gone. Most of the time, there aren't given answers. There's an answer for the individual, but we need to help them work through that and not get in the way.

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Jake Wagner: Ask the right questions and provide a container and space where people can allow themselves to ask these harder questions, and to make sure to spend the time on their finances and their future that they know they owe themselves, but it's hard to actually put in that time. Definitely heard of planners where they feel like they've talked about clients who, really there's some conversations that happen in their office that don't happen other places. Marriages, they set some great rules for themselves and give each other great feedback, and that the relationship is better for the time and the work that they do with the planner. That's why Dad's right when he says that this is the most important profession in the 21st century.

Marty Kurtz: No, that's right, Jake. That's exactly where it is. To say that there is a definitive right and wrong all the time is where the crossover is. I think there was a time when we all could be extremely judgemental about where people were or what they want to do, but today, we're not interested in judging them. We want to increase their curiosity and help them understand what all the possibilities might be, which are probably a multitude of things over and above what we've thought of.

Jake Wagner: Yeah, and that's a part of why we need to be grateful and let those seeds do those things too, put out that opportunity, because when someone else gets creative, they come up with the thing that you never could've, and that's pretty amazing.

Marty Kurtz: That's right. In the process, there is a lot of dispersion of feelings and attitudes and beliefs, and we get them all out on the table. We iron some, and some we throw away, and some we tuck back in for later, but we're constantly trying to reframe and reestablish where they should go now and what they want to do. That is not something you can do once and sit back and let it percolate for 10 years. It needs to be constantly drawn back out, what's changed, what's new, what's good, what's bad, what are we indifferent about.

Jake Wagner: Are you saying you can't just set 30-year projections out in your planning software, "Here's Monte Carlo," and then call it a day?

Marty Kurtz: Yes, that is what I'm saying.

Jake Wagner: If you're doing that, guys, I hope you can dig a little deeper [crosstalk 00:30:53].

Marty Kurtz: It is fun to show clients some projects out in the future, and we tell them, "We're going to look at this thing every time you come in, and we're going to see if anything's changed. If something's changed, we're going to talk about what it was. Was it you, or was it somebody else? Did we have it wrong in the first place, or do we have it right now?"

Jake Wagner: Well, and also, when you're talking about that, we were just talking about more of that 1.0 software kind of stuff, but you guys also have a number of 2.0 tools that you use as well. Don't you use Wheel of Life? First Step, it's a different way of doing budgeting, but yeah. What are some of those tools, and don't they help you get a better understanding of your client as well?

Marty Kurtz: Oh, absolutely, and they are bridges. They are bridges to infinity. First Step and Wheel of Life and Satisfaction Survey or Kinder Questions are way to open up a conversation that's going to go on for a long time. Like I said, that 30-year conversation has got to have some support. It's got to be built on something. It might even be money history. "Tell me about how you grew up with money. Did your parents talk about money? What's the stupidest thing you ever done with money?" There's just a lot of good things that can be brought up that are going to bridge you into a 3.0 position.

Jake Wagner: Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah. Agreed.

Marty Kurtz: That's why I'm such a lover of a cash management system like your sister and you are too, that it's this conversation that brings us from our daily spending habits, when psychologically, what we're really doing is acting out our beliefs with money. We may not want to recognize that, but really, we honor all our beliefs every year by where we spend our money.

Jake Wagner: Yeah. We also are, no time like the present, right? As we spend our money, each one of them is a vote, we know that, but just recognizing that society is changing the way that it interacts because of these decisions. That to me is that 3.0 moment, for sure, recognizing how ... I know details from my coworking space here in Portland, where we're very community, capital-centric. Amy Pearl, who runs my office, says that a dollar spent in your local community can be worth $11 and re-spent. It's not just for the warm fuzzies. There's definitely some hard bottom-line benefits to thinking about this stuff and doing it better.

Marty Kurtz: Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. Now, we're going through another transformation as credit cards disappear. Some people are just getting used to their debit card, and it's like, "Well, it's going. It's all going to be on the phone, or it's going to be on the watch, or some other device, or maybe embedded in our ear," I don't know. It's becoming less and less ... The first languages that came out, they were naming things by their shape or something, or the sound came out trying to match up to the word that it was with. It was a very tangible type relationship between what we named things for words and what it actually was, like a cow or a sheep or a horse. Things now are dividing up so much much. They're walking away from that. They have whole different meanings, and the whole different ways of language is evolving. As people-

Jake Wagner: Isn't it also, a lot of folks don't know Latin or some of those other languages quite as ... I do have some friends who can just stick some prefixes and suffixes and a little bit of a verb in the middle and come up with a word like finology, for example.

Marty Kurtz: That's right.

Jake Wagner: Yeah.

Marty Kurtz: Well, as people now, maybe lifespan is 100, or 110 or 120, or whatever it is, so we're living longer and things are changing faster. Going back to that feeling of vulnerability, and dealing with the complexity is just becoming more and more magnified.

Jake Wagner: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and also, the fellow at the retreat who was talking to us about that, also just decreased birth rate as well. I thought that was a really interesting-

Marty Kurtz: Yeah, it is.

Jake Wagner: Part of that topic. Basically, yeah, conscious conception is a big deal, and making sure that you can create the basis for the best life for that baby possible out there. Sometimes you get given a gift or two, but at the same time, being able to have a little bit more higher standards for how we take care of our children, and that we are. Our infant mortality rate shows that as well.

Marty Kurtz: Yeah, absolutely. Ryan Galloway was that guy's name, so [crosstalk 00:36:45] wondering about it. Yeah.

Jake Wagner: What else do you want to make sure that the audience knows here, Marty, because we've been talking for a good little while, and I've been loving this. I'm sure they are too.

Marty Kurtz: Well, Jake, number one, I just think it's great you're sponsoring these conversations, because it's really the way to keep things rolling. I hope a lot of people comment on it, where it takes them, what they agree with, what they disagree with, because the more we can kick it around and get a dispersion of feelings and thoughts about it, the more we're going to settle in on that path that really makes sense for the future. It's really, the diversity is our friend in the discussion.

Jake Wagner: Yeah, it is. It is this complex problem that you've taught us about in this call. We're going to see some things maybe break apart and come back together. Hopefully it's just concepts, but yeah. We have a lot to discover in the next lifetime.

Marty Kurtz: What I've said in the past, some of the guys here and ladies here, I feel a little bit like, and I think your dad probably felt the same way too, we feel a little bit like Moses. We've been leading a group for so many years, and now at 67, reaching a spot where we're going to say, "Take it over, group," Jake, your generation and the G2s, G3s, G4s, G5s to come, and say, "See what you can do with it. Our generation moved from 1.0 to 3.0, but by no means do we believe that's the end. There's lots of things in the new world that need to be discovered.

Marty Kurtz: The one real strong belief I hope everyone has is that, everybody needs a third party to talk to about life and money. Your dad was a big proponent of that, I am a big proponent of that. It's not going to happen with a computer, at least not in the generations I can see. It is this human experience where we need each other in community, and community can be three people sitting in a room in Denver, Colorado, talking about their life and money, or it could be anywhere. That's what I'm trying to say.

Jake Wagner: Yeah.

Marty Kurtz: If we all have that belief, understanding that is our purpose, that is our need, there will be multiple discoveries along this way on, how do we have people have a better relationship with money? Because the other thing that I really want to just state is, this is all new. This is all new. My grandparents didn't have any money, and neither did anybody they knew. It was a world of scarcity. Now, there are concerns we're using up resources, but we live in abundance, and we want to keep it that way for generations to come. How do we wisely do that?

Jake Wagner: Yeah, and how do we sustainably do it as well?

Marty Kurtz: How do we sustainably do it? Absolutely.

Jake Wagner: For the planning center to be around for seven generations of helping people with financial advice, we're going to also be taking care of, making sure to not damage the planet's ecology, maybe even make it-

Marty Kurtz: Exactly.

Jake Wagner: A little bit better. That to me is definitely part of being a fiduciary too.

Marty Kurtz: That's true.

Jake Wagner: Not sure at what level.

Marty Kurtz: No, we're all in it together.

Jake Wagner: Exactly, and it's the best planet I've ever seen.

Marty Kurtz: Yeah, exactly.

Jake Wagner: At least for living on.

Marty Kurtz: Exactly. One other quote that I know pops up is, I'm trying to think of his name, Peter Block wrote a book called Community. In there, paraphrased by Marty, he says, "Advice kills conversation." Our job is to create curiosity, curiosity about how can we do it better, curiosity about how can we sustain this, curiosity about how we can be happier, and curiosity about how can we help our fellow man. That is financial planning 3.0

Jake Wagner: Yeah, you've told me that in years past. Thanks for telling me again. It still blew my socks off.

Marty Kurtz: Good.

Jake Wagner: Well, with that, I think we should wrap up this conversation for today. This is a lot for folks to digest. I listen to all these things several times, and folks, I hope you do too, because there is a whole lot of content in here, a lot of great stuff to learn. Marty, thank you for coming on the show. I really appreciate that.

Marty Kurtz: Jake, I so appreciate the invite. I love what you're doing, man. Keep up the good work. You're doing the right thing.

Jake Wagner: Thanks for the support. I appreciate it. Same to everybody else out there and all the support you share with me, and my dad and these projects as well. With that, folks, thank you for listening to this episode of the What Is Finology podcast. Make sure to listen to the next episode.