September 9

How do we reduce the shame that our clients are walking into our meetings with Hannah Moore CFP®?

Summary

In this episode of the “What is Finology” Podcast, host Natalie Wagner-Willis talks with guest Hannah Moore (A Certified Financial Planner™, a Certified Financial Transitions™ expert, a longtime Finology Fellow as well as the owner of Guiding Wealth). Hannah talks about the power of language and shares some incidents highlighting how powerful language is. They also discuss the role of language and the shame process, and how to eliminate the shame that clients are walking into meeting with.

 

Episode Highlights

3.51 – Hannah states that many clients have deep-rooted shame issues around money and it’s preventing them from wanting to meet.

5.22 – As per Natalie, our language is the platform in which we think and some people actually argue that we cannot think beyond the limits of the language within which we function.

7.10 – Hannah shares an incident, where a woman was talking about how important language is, especially for children, she was talking about how powerful it is.

8.15 – Hannah talks about the words that we can give a three-year-old, which would really help them to be able to navigate it.

10.15 – Natalie stresses the idea of how we get in front of a relationship, comparing it to sexual molestation.

12.12 – She highlights that sexuality and money are completely different, but there are a couple of interesting similarities.

17.23 – According to Hannah, if someone says, we don’t have credit card debt and we are doing great, it’s unhealthy. It’s nice not the healthiest way to approach it.

19.38 – Natalie points out, some expert in an office says, 35 years old in the US should have this amount of savings while that person does not have information regarding our unique lifestyle, where we live, what we want to do, and what all that financially means.

22.11 – Hannah points out, how we talk about money matters and it has a significant impact on the people who listen to us.

24.00 – In Hannah’s view, one of the things that are really powerful for some clients is showing them their net worth statement.

25.42 – Natalie mentions that when we don’t know what our net worth is, we put ourselves into this place of not having awareness of what’s going on in our own lives.

27.36 – Hannah states, there’s a really powerful position to really help people know what their reality is and the major decisions based on that.

29.01 – Natalie refers to an episode where Eric said that “money does not reflect our self-worth; money cannot give us self-worth”.

32.41 – Hannah says, “How we give advice that shame we talked about, that’s going to be a big deal.”

33.41 – Natalie enquires, “What do you do when you’re in a client session and you’re feeling that shame come up?”

35.08 – Hannah suggests that the first thing is to prevent shame when a client is recognizing our own bias.

37.19 – She highlights that we have to make sure that we are not crossing that line into counseling.

39.21 – Hannah shares, it’s fascinating to see clients move with their goals, people are very dynamic.

41.50 – Natalie states that the issues have no place to go except for inward without the proper language.

44.27 – Hannah wants her clients to not be having that nagging thought in the back of their heads while spending their money.

46.45 – Natalie states, Money forces and the way that they affect individuals is absolutely profound.

 

Three Key Points

  1. We really need to come up with new words to help people in, what they’re feeling, how they are thinking about their money and how they relate to their money.
  2. We need to be so cautious about when we’re giving advice and how we’re talking to our clients because our words matter.
  3. How we talk about money matters, and it has a significant impact on the people who listen to us.

 

Tweetable Quotes

  • “The fact that a three-year-old can say that sentence decreases her chance of being molested or abuse significantly.” – Hannah Moore
  • “If we can help people on their healing journey around money right, that’s great.” – Hannah Moore
  • “My heart goes out to him because he’s had to sleep at night for the last 30 years with that number ringing through his head, and it probably is affecting his entire life.” – Natalie Wagner-Willis
  • “But at the end of the day, there is some of this fear of like, what am I missing out on. If I would have invested. If I would have bought 10 Bitcoin at that price.” – Hannah Moore
  • “I’ve had a number of clients tell me that one of the things that they most appreciate working with me is the conversations that they have, after the meeting, are always so good.” – Hannah Moore
  • “We’re not the heroes of this story, our clients are.” – Hannah Moore
  • ‘I just talked to one of my clients, he was probably one of the most anxious clients that I’ve worked with. When we started the relationship, and now he is just, he’s just like, I just don’t worry about my money.” – Hannah Moore
  • “The making money, make money component of it is obviously essential, but it is probably the least interesting from my personal perspective.” – Natalie Wagner-Willis

Transcript

Hannah Moore 

And it really made me think about what would be that language that I could teach my three-year-old little girl that could really help her understand her money.

And because we know that so many people have an unhealthy relationship with money in our country, but what is it that I could? What are the words that I could give a three-year-old that would really help them to be able to navigate it? And we talked about saving and spending and giving, you know, those are some of the basics, and those are really important words.

But when I started thinking about this idea of our relationship with money, I think is a lot more than that. It’s more than just saving, giving and investing. There’s something there’s something else there. And that’s really when I think about it, you know, the language that we’re missing.

Hannah Moore

And it really made me think about what would be that language that I could teach my three-year-old little girl that could really help her understand her money.

And because we know that so many people have an unhealthy relationship with money in our country, but what is it that I could... What are the words that I could give a three-year-old that would really help them to be able to navigate it? And we talked about saving and spending and giving, you know, those are some of the basics, and those are really important words.

But when I started thinking about this idea of our relationship with money, I think is a lot more than that. It's more than just saving, giving and investing. There's something there's something else there. And that's really when I think about it, you know, the language that we're missing.

Natalie Wagner Willis

Our guest today on the What is Finology podcast is Hannah Moore. Hannah is a Certified Financial Planner™, a Certified Financial Transitions™ expert, as well as the owner of Guiding Wealth, host of the podcast. So You're a Financial Planner, Now What?, and a founding Fellow of our What is Finology Project?

Hannah's everyday approach to financial planning includes exploring her client's relationships with money, which Hannah and I agree, is where transformations are found.

Hannah brought two topics that have been calling her attention to our conversation today, shame and language.

As financial planners looking to develop your human skills, knowing when and how shame is a part of your client's relationship with money is a key element of meeting them where they are, and guiding them to a better place. What role does language play in the shame process? And in coming back from it?

Hannah and I also talk about what role language might play and how we could do a better job of preventing dis-functionality in money relationships in the first place.

Check out a transcript of our conversation on what is finology.org, and please consider signing up for our Patreon. In addition to other perks, you will receive unlimited access to the archives of our weekly email series, Finology Byte$: MoneyMind Bender$. thank you for being a part of the conversation, enjoy.

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What is Finology? Here we explore our personal relationships with money, monies nature, and how we exchange value in daily life, grounding ourselves in the liberal arts. We explore Financial Planning 3.0 from the inside out, addressing money as the most powerful and pervasive secular force on the planet. Mysterious money merits study.

Natalie Wagner Willis

Hello, welcome to the What is Finology Podcast. I am your host Natalie Wagner Willis. Today we have with us Hannah Moore. Good morning, Hannah. How are you?

Hannah Moore

I'm doing well.

Natalie Wagner Willis

Thank you, Hannah, thank you for being on the show with us. You brought us a couple of beautiful topics today. And I'd like to just give you the floor for a couple of minutes. What do you want to talk about here on the WhatisFinology? Show?

Hannah Moore

Yeah, well, thank you, Natalie, for having me. And for everybody who's listening. When I think about Finology, and kind of you know, talking with you beforehand, there's really two big topics of those human skills that planners need. And the first one that really came to mind was this idea of shame. And one of the things that I've really been thinking a lot about lately is how do we reduce the shame that our clients are walking into our meetings with? How do we eliminate that from that we're not projecting that onto them, we're not encouraging that we're really helping them overcome some of those elements. Because I think the more and more, I see new clients walking in my door, I just am recognizing it, recognizing that so many of them have these deep rooted shame issues around money, and it's preventing them from even walking to my door sometimes. So I'm just fascinated by that idea. So I know we're going to be diving into that more.

But the other topic, which is just a really fun, kind of more theoretical, but it's this idea about the language that we have around money. And this was actually I know a lot of this podcast is built off of your dad Dick Wagner and a lot of his work. I just had so many interesting conversations with him about this idea of language, and how so many of these things like, what does it mean to have a healthy relationship with money? That perhaps one of the core issues that we have as a society. that we don't have the words or the language to really describe our relationship with money.

And because we don't have those words, and we're not able to talk around it in a certain way, we're doing a disservice to ourselves, and how perhaps what we need to do is come up with new words, to really help people articulate kind of what, what they're thinking, what they're feeling, how they think about their money, how they relate to their money.

So those are some of the two themes and think about this. I'll kind of let you direct where you want to go on this.

Natalie Wagner Willis

Perfect. Thank you. I love both of these areas. And I think I want to start with language.

The first thing that comes up for me when you bring forward this topic of language, is that it is philosophically debated. And where you land on that is not really the important thing here. The question is the important thing, that our language is the platform in which we think, and some people actually argue that we cannot think beyond the limits of the language within which we function.

So I don't know that that is literally true, I think we can definitely experience things that are a little bit beyond our language. But it still comes back to the fact that what do we do with these ideas? And actually, Hannah, that's entirely one of the reasons that Finology was coined in the first place.

My dad, Dick, as you were talking about, looked at the world of humanity and money, and felt that there was a huge area that was underserved. There's language for economics, there's language for pulling in your spending lots of different things.

But the personal relationship with money, that interior piece, is something that there has long been a gap in the language about.

And now and that's part of our work here is with this word Finology. That is the personal relationship with money, let's dive into this interior realm. And in the long run, the awareness that comes with that should cultivate a better self awareness, and, as you put it, how we relate to money or language about how we relate to money, I think is absolutely essential.

Hannah Moore

No, I completely agree with everything that you're saying, Natalie, and let me tell a story really quick, where it really I kind of made the connection for me at that.

So at our church, we were doing a a series on sexuality as crazy as that is. And anyway, we were doing this, and they brought in some different experts, if you will, talking about it. And one of the things that really stood out to me was this woman, the social worker, or counselor, was talking about how important language is for especially children. And she was she was talking about how powerful it was for even as young as a two or three year old, and specifically like little girl in this situation, but really anybody or a little boy, in this situation, and she was saying how powerful it is for children to have the language to describe their body parts. So the fact that a little three year old girl can say, this is my vagina, and nobody can touch me here except Mommy, Daddy, and the doctor, if I give them permission, the fact that a three year old can say that sentence decreases her chance of being molested or abuse significantly, like over 70% chance of decreasing that abuse, because she's going to be able to short circuit things, she's not going to be surprised in situations, she's already kind of been prepared for things in a certain way.

And it really made me think about what would be that language that I could teach my three year old girl that could really help her understand her money. And because we know that so many people have an unhealthy relationship with money in our country, but what is it that I could? What are the words that I could give a three year old that would really help them to be able to navigate it?

And we talked about saving and spending and giving, you know, those are some of the basics. And those are really important words. But when I started thinking about this idea of our relationship with money, I think it's a lot more than that is more than just saving, giving and investing. There's something there's something else there. And that's really when I think about it, you know, the language that we're missing. We can write essays and essays and essays and there's so many amazing tenets, your dad's point about this field of financial planning being very multidisciplinary, or liberal arts profession.

There's lots of people who've written poetry and all these different things. But there's, I still think at its core, when I think about people's relationship to money, there's a lot of really great work do it that's going on out there. But I go back to this idea of what would I tell my three year old that if I could get them to say this sentence or this phrase or help them understand this concept that will prevent them from having would significantly reduce their chance of unhealthy relationship with money? And I don't know what that is, and it's really more of a question for people but I I love that idea. And that's that's really when I think about the language, what I go back to and think about. I think there is a gap there. And I don't have that word. Hopefully somebody who's listening to this does. Please write like we need this. But but it is this concept, this essence that I think that we're missing in our society right now and in our language.

Natalie Wagner Willis

I completely agree. And I am trying to wrap my mind as you bring up these questions of what those terms may be. And I have, my twins are three and my older is eight. And it's so fun to talk to the eight year old and has been for a few years about his ideas about money. And he comes up with wonderful things, but none of them nail what you're talking about. And this idea of how do we get in front of the relationship and comparing it to the sexual molestation, though the word that's coming up for me is: dysfunctional.

Hannah Moore

Yeah, that's a great word. And yeah, and I know, like, we're talking about financial and the sexual, like, I know, those are very different, different realms. So I always want to be very careful and kind of navigating that, and realizing that like, those are just inherently very different. And what is clearly like, a violation of a person versus choices that another person makes, like they are inherently different, I just want to, of course, be very clear on that. And it is the concept behind it. It's really fascinating.

You know, we're recording this here in February, and we've just gone through the big GameStop, and the big, or the AMC, and we have a whole new generation of Gen Z and millennials and, and people who are buying, they're calling meme stocks. And I saw an article were 26%. Now, this is a survey, I'm hoping it's a I don't know, it's just fascinating to me, 26% of Americans have bought one of these meme stocks, and they like classified them as like six or eight of these stocks. And it's just, I'm not saying, I'm not saying that's good or bad. I'm just saying i think i think it's a great learning opportunity.

But I just wonder, how could we better be positioning ourselves as financial planners to really help define what's happening? Right, like, what's going on with this? And I don't think it's as easy as I know, I've heard some people be very dismissive of it. And I don't think we can be dismissive of it. I think there's something that's that shifting that we don't really add. Number one, I just think it's fascinating that things are shifting. But I don't know, I think there's something there's something deeper going on.

Natalie Wagner Willis

Yeah, there definitely is something deeper going on. And not to say that so of course, sexuality and money are completely different. But there are a couple of interesting similarities, that it's not so much these days.

But traditionally, sexuality has been a taboo. And money is still largely a taboo, which I think really opens the door for that shame that you were bringing up earlier.

When we don't have the ability to talk socially within our community about something, I think that no matter what it is, that's going to open the door really wide for us to internalize our questions and come up with muddled answers that maybe don't serve us. As well as if we are starting to walk down a path of dis-functionality. How do we get off of that? If we're not in community if we're internalizing?

Jacob Wagner

Hi, This is Jake Wagner, co founder of the what is Finology project. If you're new here, we highly encourage you to listen to episode zero, in which we share where the project started, where we're going, and some of the intellectual basis that we've used to build our body of work. We are grateful that you are a part of the conversation, please visit whatisfinology.org to share your comments and questions. Now, back to the episode.

Hannah Moore

You know, it's fascinating when I have clients come into my office and it changes over it sounds a little bit different. But one of the most common things that I hear the most common question that I get is a simple, "Am I normal?" question. And it's again, it comes in various forms. But that's at its core.

We don't talk about money. We don't know, are we on track? We get to go to Google, you can type in how much money should a 35 year old have saved for retirement? You know, like that's what we do. We don't go to our friends and we don't have a conversation.

So how much do you have in your 401k? How have you been preparing for retirement? And granted, some people do have those conversations, but I know in my friend group like I guess I am kind of the awkward one that will talk about money but but it's not a normal conversation that we have and so it's very much hidden, it's very much so often we just we hide these things versus really bringing them out in the open. And we look at what shame is, right?

So we can say I made that was a bad money decision, versus I am bad at money, like, So shame is saying, I am bad at money by saying I am. Like, there is something about me about my character who I am, that is inherently flawed. And, and so you know, one of the things, so when you have that mindset, and there's been so much research done about this, when you have that mindset around anything in life, it's, you're always going to be, you're trapped in the cycle, right? You're trapped in this cycle.

And for so many people, when we start talking about money, we're talking about their security, we're talking about, are they gonna lose their home, we're talking about their legacy, like, these are some of the most core elements to who they are. And if we start bringing in shame or shame is present in this, it impacts so much of their life, it's such a big deal. I was talking to somebody one time, who had money on credit cards, they had a pretty high credit card balance. And they were talking about it and they were just being like, "I know I shouldn't, I shouldn't have this credit card debt. I know how bad credit card debt is." There was such this guilt and shame around this.

And so we started talking more, and I found out that a lot of this was medical bills. So to be able to reframe that entire conversation around, you know, no, you're not out there. This is not just you frivolously spending it. You were able to provide for your family, you were able to help your family survive in one of the most difficult times of your life. And sure you ended up with credit card debt. So what? We get out of that. And it's in, there's so much, you know, when you go and read articles online, like there's so much like credit card debt is bad. And it's and what's so hard about that is how we position that we want the easy answers.

In our society, we just do we want the 1,2,3 steps to wealth building, right? Like, I mean, I want it but it's never that simple. The what we do when we do that, is we really pigeonhole people into one of two categories.

So like, you should, debt is bad. I mean, it's a very common one, right? debt is bad, credit card debt is bad. And so you immediately position, what happens is, is that there's this wedge at this point where people can say, I don't have credit card debt. That means I'm good. But that means it can be a very mean prideful is a term that comes to mind is very much patting yourself on the back. It's an unhealthy mechanism like it's unhealthy, right? Because we don't know if that's true. All we know is that you don't have credit card debt. Right? We don't know what else could be out there. You could, there's a million different things that could also be it's not about being good or bad. But it's just like, how are you actually measuring success? How are you actually valuing yourself, right? So so that's one of the inherent flaws with with like, credit card debt is bad. I don't have credit card debt, I'm doing great. myself on the back. It's unhealthy. It's not, it's not the healthiest way to approach it.

The other side of it, is if you do have credit card debt actually puts you back into the shame cycle of being like, Oh, I'm bad. I have credit card debt. And so we often think of like, how do we motivate people is through this shame idea of being like, you shouldn't have credit card debt, you shouldn't have that. Whatever it could be, you should have X number of dollars saved by the time you're 35. By the time you're 45, and 55, if you want to do X, Y, or Z, or if you want to leave a legacy or whatever it could be.

And what we're really doing is we're from a psychology standpoint, both of those are really unhealthy. And so we so how do we break out of that? Right? One of the biggest triggers that I have is this idea. Anytime I say should I just I should a number of different times. And so anytime I hear should from myself, anytime you hear a shoot for my client, it's an immediate trigger to stop. There is there is no, you don't get good outcomes, which should you just don't?

Because should is a word that divides just like that. You're either yes. Or you're no, right?

So what you want to do, especially with clients is, you know, clients will come in and say, I know I should have saved more for retirement when I was younger, and I did it. And or I know I should with other one. I know I should have work an extra two years, things like that.

And it's always whenever I hit as a trigger, and what we want to do is we want to shift the conversation from "shoulds" to "Don't tell me what you should do. Tell me what you want to do." Right?

So in a non financial example, it would be like, Oh, I should go visit my family. Okay, well, do you want to visit your family? Or is it a shared obligation?

And and so when we kind of shifted to that want, we can really get to the core issues, we can really get down to the heart of the matter. Really get down to the human side of it like this whole podcast is about, and then really figuring out like, this isn't about what we should do. This is about what do we want to do? What do we get to do?

And that's a powerful conversation.

Natalie Wagner Willis

Right? Well, and I feel like the "shoulds" are typically derived from stories, some expert in an office says 35 year olds in the US should have this amount of savings. While that person does not have information regarding your unique lifestyle, where you live, what you want to do, and what all that financially means.

Hannah Moore

So they're just telling this blanket blanket story, and laying it on top of every 35 year old across the nation. Well, that's, that's never gonna fit.

I had a client come in very recently, who told me he listened to a radio show 30 years ago, and they said that at retirement, you should have a million dollars. And he's like, and I don't have a million dollars. Oh, wow. And, and it was just a really powerful moment where it was just like, Okay, well, that's what you should. Okay, so that's what he said you should have, but what do you actually need? What are your choices now? What What do you want, and it's, you know, those "shoulds" are really, really powerful.

We look at our advice when a client comes into our office, it is such a privilege, it is such a responsibility that we have as financial planners to be speaking into their life, that client was from 30 years ago, something he heard financial advice he heard on the radio! We need to be so cautious of when we're giving advice and how we're talking to our clients. Because our words matter. And our words will stick with people.

And if we can, we can bring life we can bring joy we can bring, I mean not to get too crazy with me. And we're not therapists at all, but like we can help people on their healing journey around money, right? That's right, you're out there.

Or we can we can put them right back in this should in this in this shame cycle. And, and so when I look at that client, he's been in that shame cycle for 30 years, because he doesn't have a million dollars, and he's not on track for a million dollars. And that's just a very, it's just a very, when I think about financial planning as a profession, like there is a ton of power in financial planning. And and both the good and the bad side of it.

Natalie Wagner Willis

Well, and you, you tell that story, and my heart gets very heavy for that man. He's had to sleep at night for the last 30 years, with that number ringing through his head, and probably is affecting his entire life.

Hannah Moore

Yeah. And it's, it's so easy, you know, we look at the media personalities that are out there, and, and good or bad, and certainly have some opinions on that. But you know, it's who we listen to matters. And if people are listening to us, we have a responsibility. We do what we do. And we think that we should motivate people by just like, rah rah, if you can, you know, you need to have a million dollars.

But like, how we talk about money matters, and it has significant impact on on the people who listen to us. And that can be on your blog, that can be in your client meetings, that can be on presentations that you give like that's across the board is a different way of thinking. It's a different way of approaching it. It's a different, it's a different mindset.

But the more we can embrace it, as financial planners, more a profession can embrace that, the better we are and the more progress we're going to be making to really help people with their relationship with money.

Natalie Wagner Willis

Well, and words have power, right? 

It was fictional, so it's not the same as your story about the sexuality workshop in your church, but there was a show with a woman who was past menopause. And this was dated sometime in the past when scientific education was less prominent. And she actually didn't know the name of her genitalia. She didn't know the word "vagina" as a mother of 10 as an older woman. And the nurse in the story gave her those words, and the power that they meant to her, she was able to take what was a very confusing and scary medical concern, and take ownership over it and address it and increase not only her physical health, but her mental relationship with her body, so very, very much.

And bringing that back to money. How do we, so that's two-fold. We want to get in front of dis-functionality in the beginning. And we also want to help people who are past that, to heal their relationships with money, like you said.

Hannah Moore

And you know, it's so fascinating. One of the and not every client, so like this is not broad for everybody. But one of the things that is really powerful for some clients is showing them their net worth statement. I'm just literally being like, I'm shocked, right? So this is I always tell people, this is a language that I speak, I was just talking to somebody and they were just like, "Oh my gosh, all these we have all these statements. And we don't know and all this," and I'm like, "No, no, like, this is the language that I learned to speak." Like, I know how to read a statement, I know how to read an insurance policy, I know how to do these things like, this is easy for me. And so it's it's fascinating. Knowing I mean, people are just so overwhelmed. Like, we assume that people have a knowledge that we do, and they don't.

And because they're so overwhelmed or not even mean so many people, I mean, I'm shocked at the number of people who come into my office, and they're surprised at their net worth statement, or that they just don't know.

And so part of it was Elizabeth Jetton always talks about how, like a significant portion of our population, I think she says something like 80 or 90%? I don't know, I'm sure you've probably already had her on to talk about this, but they aren't even ready to step into our office. And so, you know, when we think about that, it's like, how do we make it safe for somebody to feel comfortable enough to actually look at where their money is?

I mean, I know that sounds so simple to us as financial planners, but for some people, that's a huge hurdle. And we have to remember that and when they come into our office, is that this is this is a really big deal for them.

Natalie Wagner Willis

Yeah, I don't think very many people take a look at their net worth statements without a professional of some sort with them. It is so interesting, how the lack of awareness or the the ability to get so what am I trying to say here, when we don't know what our net worth is...

if we put ourselves into this place of not having awareness of what's going on in our own lives. And without that, how are we even going to have access to a place that isn't filled with shame? Because even if we are doing okay, we don't know that we're doing okay, if we're not aware of it.

Hannah Moore

Yeah. And it can be new, we're saying net worth can be how much are you spending every month? Yeah, it can be that level. And it's and so many people, I mean, fear is so tied to money. And to be fair, that's not everybody.

There's definitely I certainly have clients who don't have that fear. But it's, it's so tied to this idea of security. And, and it's one of my clients, she always talks about how her goal in life, and I actually, actually I went and interviewed her, right, like, she made this transition from selling your home into retirement communities so beautifully, that I was like, "I just want to know, I just want to know more!"

And so I just went over there, there was no financial media, I was like, I just want to I just want to learn from you. Like, tell me more about what this was, like, and she loved it. But one of the things that she said was, she's like, what I've learned in my finances is that, "I want to be grounded in reality". And I use that phrase a lot with people.

It's how much I mean, all of a sudden money stuff, right? It's, you know, we have all these people who win the lottery and then lose it. We have athletes who do that, you know, it's just kind of this phenomenon that happens. And I think, I mean, my sweet client, who's in her 70s. Now, her idea of what does it mean to be grounded in reality? How, what are what are my actual options? With all the resources that I have? What does that actually look like? That's a really, really positive conversation. And that's being grounded in reality.

And so I think so often, that's what we can do for our clients is help them understand that. And so there is a really powerful position to really help people know what their reality is, and then make decisions based on that. Yeah, cuz I mean, how many clients have come in and are just like, well, someday I'm going to inherit money, or I know that in a couple years, my business will explode, or they could be right. But it's okay. How do we make decisions for today?

Natalie Wagner Willis

Well, and it brings up for me, the flip side of that fear, which is still has a lot of fear to it, but the self-actualization or the coming into your own that our society puts holds within our relationship to money right now that there is so much it's not just about having a place to live. It's also about being all that you can be. Yeah, so there is the fear of actual security. But there's also and I think that our culture right now has this as a very prominent vein, that we're all supposed to be these amazing versions of ourselves, and come into this self actualization through our money earning through our professional lives.

And so I think that there is a lot of one there are dreams that are wrapped up in our relationships with money that may or may not be coming to fruition and then our self-worth, and Erik Milam said in a podcast a few, a few months ago, beautiful quote, that was, "Money does not reflect our self-worth money cannot give us self worth." And I'm paraphrasing because I forget exactly what he said. But something like that.

Hannah Moore

Oh, well, Erik is spot on. And you know, even as you're saying that I think of this YOLO culture, like you only live once again, I just keep going back. I'm so stuck. I'm just fascinated by what's happened with like, the GameStop and stock and everything. And it was interesting.

And I know you're talking about like, kind of this larger, bigger, like, Who am I? What am I doing with my life, but it was fascinating because I was watching myself in that right. And so like, I am a trained financial planner, like I'm not, I'm not clueless, like I know. Like, I know, all the training, I know all the right things to say I know all of that.

But I started watching that game stock early on, when it was like at like $15, tempted that 10 $15 a share and see it go up. And I just remember, as I was watching it several weeks before, it had like the massive spikes, and there was just this, this incriminate like I wanted to be in all of it. Like it was there was such a fear of missing out on it.

And it was just fascinating to watch my reaction to everything going on in that. And I didn't invest in GameStop, for a lot of reasons. And I'm neither here nor there not saying not saying it's good or bad. Because some people did very well. And other people, you know, obviously didn't. But it was just fascinating watching my internal reaction to that. And then realizing like when I look at the past years, or 2020, what are the other pieces that I've missing out on when we have like the Bitcoin we have the Tesla stock. And these are really, really practical examples.

Just more of an invitation to dive deeper into why is it that I feel like that? How is what is that saying about my relationship with money? What is that saying about all these different things? And I don't know, it's just, it's just really kind of a, I find it very fun and interesting.

Natalie Wagner Willis

Yeah, those money forces, and the way that they affect individuals is absolutely profound.

Hannah Moore

And I've done a lot of like, talking about my money script, you know, thinking through a lot of these issues, and it's just so interesting to be like, you're never there. Something always will come up, just like he does for our clients. And that's, that's okay. And are you a safe place for your client to come talk and share these things with you?

Natalie Wagner Willis

Right, the story that you told about the woman spending her money with joy in a way she never had before? Yeah.

To me, that is a beautiful example of the purpose of financial planning. Yeah, because an algorithm can make some money, make money and fine, that's incredible.

That being said, what does that matter if you can't spend it without thinking about should should should is irrelevant in that exact moment. And none of this has to do with income level. Right?

So the real value that she is experiencing from her money is literally infinite compared to the real value she experienced before going through the transformation, allowing her to spend it freely and with joy. Yeah. And that's everything. Yeah, it's a life changing. transition. transformation.

Hannah Moore

Yeah, yeah, we I truly believe that financial planning transforms lives. Yeah, I absolutely. 100% believe I've seen it, I've experienced it myself. Right. And and I've seen it with my clients. And it's like, this is what we do every day. Like, this is what I get to do every day. Like I just sometimes just pinch myself I'm like, Am I really this lucky to be able to have a career, I get to do all this and I am and that's just such a such a fortunate spot to be in.

Natalie Wagner Willis

It's amazingly profound work and I just can't help but think about my father in this moment. And how proud he would be, honestly of hearing you say what you just said about being an honor and pinching yourself. He would just be laughing and just so incredibly pleased.

Hannah Moore

Yeah. Well, thank you. He was your dad. So definitely not enough. But I definitely treasure all the time that I got to spend with him. Yeah,

Natalie Wagner Willis

yeah. And this is so much about what it's about in terms of how Dad really felt that these human skills were the quintessential skills or that life changing component in financial planning. And he would be so proud of you, Hannah. And he would be very proud of us doing this work, and in his words, continuing the conversation.

Hannah Moore

Yeah. You know, I've been thinking a lot about, obviously, industry profession, that type of thing. And, and if we're just an industry, it's not life changing work, right. Financial investment advice is an industry.

But when we talk about us as a profession, that's where the magic is. That's where it's the investments, meet the spending, meet the life, meet the goals, meet the mindset, meet the who we are, as a person meet our culture. I mean, we factor out diversity, there's so much richness, we have, obviously, the insurance, estate planning and all those things.

But it's when we start pulling those intersections together. That's the magic. Yeah. And that's where we can have the impact. It's not just an elbow, a bone and these other pieces is how does it all come together? And that's how we can really help people thrive.

Natalie Wagner Willis

And I think that that is a perfect note to wind up our conversation. Is there anything else that you would like to say for our listeners today?

Hannah Moore

Now, just thank you for doing this podcast, Natalie, and for the work that you guys are doing, and continuing all this this work. It's so needed, and I'm so grateful that you invited me on and so thank you, to you, and thank you to everybody who's listening. And knowing that whether just taking one idea, having one conversation with your clients can change our lives, and that that's the power that we have.

Don't forget that that is so so critical to what we do, and and just having that one conversation can be transformational. And for me, that is success.

Natalie Wagner Willis

It's the pleasure and the honor. There's a humbleness to it, it too, isn't there?

Hannah Moore

Yeah, we're not the heroes. Right? We're not the heroes. or clients are.

Natalie Wagner Willis

so cool. Well, thank you very much, Hannah, and thank you to all of our listeners.

This is the What is Finology Podcast. I am Natalie Wagner Willis. I hope you enjoyed our conversation.

I want to thank the What is Finology team, co-founder, curator and managing Producer Jacob Wagner, Senior assistant, Natasha Hoggatt, our CFP consultant, Dave Bowman, and project producer, Gail Pelsue. This episode of the What is Finology podcast is dedicated to our guiding light, the father of Finology, and co-founder of this project, Richard Wagner. Without you this doesn't happen. And thank you to you, our listeners, this conversation needs you. Please send us your thoughts and questions at whatisfinology.org or on Facebook and tell anyone and everyone you think might be interested.

We're looking to change the world by getting into people's heads and hearts and profoundly shifting our relationships with money. People need to know that we're here. I'm your host, Natalie Wagner Willis, as always be well.


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