May 2

Financial Planning 2.0, Life Planning and Finology with Carol Anderson


Speaker 1: What is finology? Here we explore our personal relationships with money, money's nature, and how we exchange value in daily life. Grounding ourselves in the liberal arts, we explore Financial Planning 3.0 from the inside out, addressing money as the most powerful and pervasive secular force on the planet. Mysterious money merits study.

Jake Wagner: Hello and welcome to the first episode of the What Is Finology Podcast. This is your host Jake Wagner. On this episode of the show, we have Carol Anderson. Carol, how are you doing today?

Carol Anderson: I'm doing well. Thank you, Jake.

Jake Wagner: Yeah, thanks. I'm really glad to have you on the show, too.

Carol Anderson: I'm happy to be here. I'm honored to be your first guest on this topic.

Jake Wagner: Yeah. It was a big decision, and I'm glad it's you. The first thing I'd like for you to share with the audience is just a little bit about who you are, about your company, and your background.

Carol Anderson: Well, it's a long story so I'll try to make it concise, so you can correct me if I go too far off-field here. But my background is in early childhood education and family relationships. I got my bachelor's degree in the late '60s, married, had children, did teach preschool for a while, and then raised a couple of kids.

Carol Anderson: Then in my mid-30s, my marriage ended, and that put me into a financial situation that I wasn't at all prepared for. I realized that in my focus on certain aspects of family life that I really wasn't prepared for some of the serious financial ramifications of different transitions that I could experience.

Carol Anderson: I did make the decision to make up for that and I felt a great sense of responsibility for my children. I was interested in establishing a career that would support me and my kids and be of interest to me. I knew that being a preschool teacher would not really provide that economic security that I needed in this part of my life.

Jake Wagner: Unfortunately.

Carol Anderson: Yes. I went in my small town in Puget Sound of Washington. I asked to meet with a good friend of mine, who I thought was the wisest person that I knew. I thought that he could probably guide me in what my next steps should be. I laid out, "Well, this is what my background is. This is what my interests are. This is what schooling I've had," et cetera, which he knew because we were friends, but I just laid it out in a structured way.

Carol Anderson: He really recommended that I... And this is now the mid-'80s. He really recommended that I explore the insurance field because he felt that, at that time, that that area provided the most equal opportunity for women. He said, "In fact, I'll give you your first job."

Carol Anderson: He had come out of the insurance field, but more in the corporate level. But he and his wife had made a life decision to leave the corporate world and all of the moves that that required for a family at that time, back in that era. He'd also settled in the Puget Sound area, in a small community, and established a property and casualty firm.

Carol Anderson: He gave me a job there, which was great educational opportunity, and started sending me to courses, and I became licensed, and other jobs in that area that I had got experience in life insurance. Then eventually ended up in Edward D. Jones' office in Poulsbo, Washington as a branch office administrator. They had a great training program for individuals in that position that gave a very good background in investments.

Carol Anderson: Anyway, I just learned a lot, and a lot that I could apply to my own life, but also in the working with clients realized that I wasn't the only one that was very ill-prepared to make big financial decisions as an adult, that most people were ill-equipped and illiterate in terms of money.

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Carol Anderson: I became very interested in financial education. I just saw that is the answer to all our problems and society's ills. When I had the chance to go back and work on a master's degree, that was my goal, was to be equipped to become a financial literacy evangelist and a financial educator, so I went back to school.

Carol Anderson: The program that I landed in, and this is now into my early 40s, was very multidisciplinary. It really ended up opening my eyes and also in terms of all the factors that influence financial decisions. It's not just the degree of education they have about finances, but it's the values, their family circumstances, their stage of life, on and on and on. We all know all of this now, but it's a big awakening for myself.

Carol Anderson: I got introduced to principles of adult education and lots of psychological principles and theories in sociology, and on and on, that just really broadened my perspective of all the factors that influence an individual's financial life.

Carol Anderson: I'll try to make this short, but it really catapulted me into wanting to learn more about all that influences an individual's financial decisions, but, most importantly, what motivated them to take responsibility for their own personal financial well-being, because obviously we were not taught about that in school or at home, or was it even talked about in society at that time? What was it that would motivate individuals?

Carol Anderson: I think I made a shift then to really understanding individuals' motivations and how to address those motivations. I think I better stop at that point. I could go on and on.

Jake Wagner: Well, don't go on and on and on and on. But I think that what you're sharing right now is also an excellent example of... Part of what we're talking about in this podcast is what is the 1.0, 2.0, 3.0 of financial planning, and the part of what you're sharing is in the interior story. We can feel the journey that you're going through as you did more of the 1.0 training, as you started to ask the deeper questions, and then how we're getting to where we are today where we're starting to ask these 3.0 questions.

Carol Anderson: Right.

Jake Wagner: How about you tell us about Money Quotient?

Carol Anderson: Okay. Well, after I did get my master's degree, I did have a research and consulting firm and I had a number of projects focused on a life planning perspective, and also some national studies and so forth. Then as I worked on a lot of these projects and developed materials, I began to see application to the financial planning world.

Carol Anderson: I think whereas your dad and George Kinder and some of the others, they were very much already embedded in the Financial Planning Association and other organizations that were the precursors of those. But I came more from this academic environment and also drew a focus on a more holistic approach to retirement planning.

Carol Anderson: Then became aware of this core group of financial planners that were also addressing these issues as well. In some of the organizations that I started attending and going to their conferences and so forth, there was this overlap as well. I started meeting some financial planners there. That was in the late '90s or late 2000.

Carol Anderson: Anyway, then I had the concept of Money Quotient and decided to launch that in 2001. Then initially that was with the help of a business partner. A couple of years later, we did dissolve that partnership and I carried on and, also at that point, made a strategic decision because I became much more passionate about this work, too, and also wanted to include what had been part of my previous work in terms of doing research and writing. I wanted to bring that back into my professional life as well. That's what motivated me to establish the 501(c)(3) organization as the real home for the work of Money Quotient.

Jake Wagner: What is Money Quotient for the folks who are listening to this podcast that are not already lovers and partners of yours?

Carol Anderson: Well, Money Quotient represents an individual's true wealth, their financial well-being. It is comprised of two components. They're on EQ, we call it, which is their own awareness around all the factors that influence their financial decisions, and the IQ part is the knowledge piece.

Carol Anderson: We felt that financial planners are pretty well-equipped to deal with the IQ part, but we saw a real gap in the education of financial planners in dealing with the EQ part. Our resources and our education is designed to help bridge that gap and to also empower financial planners to delve into these areas.

Carol Anderson: It gets back to this whole question about how we talk about the soft skills not being soft, it can be the hard stuff. It's an area where financial planners oftentimes feel like they're not well-equipped, that that's not part of their educational preparation. I do think, in some of the college programs now, it's being addressed more, but there still seems to be a need to help empower clients to explore these areas.

Jake Wagner: I believe the CFP board is actually looking at expanding the knowledge topics into this area a whole bunch more.

Carol Anderson: Right. Yes. There is definitely a couple of topics that really fit, address this, for sure, and we're able to provide CE for a lot of the programs that we offer.

Jake Wagner: I mean there's really the main section where he defines the 1.0, 2.0, and 3.0. There's also places where he definitely was talking about the eras of financial planning, that everything from the meeting in Chicago to the present day, and just looking at how financial planning as a profession has evolved was definitely one part of that 1.0, 2.0, and 3.0 thing. But then also there is a place where we had other parts to the... We've talked about it in a couple of different ways. The parts that we didn't get on tape here was... Carol, can you just pose your question again?

Carol Anderson: Well, I've been searching with what Dick's definitions of all of these are and to try not to put my biases and perceptions on him and to be very open to what Dick had to say about all this. I do find myself struggling to understand his distinction around Financial Planning 2.0.

Carol Anderson: I've heard some folks say, "Well, that is financial life planning," or what a lot of us have come to believe this is much more client-centered and values-based approach to financial planning, and definitely fiduciary in nature as well, that that was actually 2.0.

Carol Anderson: But as I've been reading the book and rereading different sections, I almost feel like his version is based on financial... Or that 3.0 is based on what many of us call financial life planning. But it's also challenging us to expand our thinking and our preparation for delivering that type of model.

Jake Wagner: This is one of our 30-second sponsorship slots. Your sponsorship would be featured here in our podcast. For more information, check out our sponsorship packet.

Jake Wagner: Then also what you were concerned with was just, like, yeah, that there is a part of what he's talking about here. To me... Actually, we'll get to my definitions later. But was dad's... That a lot of it was about the mechanics that 1.0 was where [Lauren Dunton 00:17:44] and this meeting of folks in the Chicago airport and this realization that here are these different financial needs that people have, that they have insurance needs, that they have financial planning needs, that there's everyday people who are thinking about investing more, this was the '70s.

Jake Wagner: By combining all of the six disciplines, it was bringing the ability... Because there's also a lot of crosstalk between those disciplines. Rather than having to have someone go out and get all of the licenses, that they made the CFP, because that way the advisor could address all of the person's needs.

Jake Wagner: Then a little while, as we scroll forward into probably the late '80s, early '90s, I don't know if you know better, Carol, but fee only and a different way of charging and really putting the client's interests first. Then part of what dad was really great at was posing questions that really got people to think deeply.

Carol Anderson: Right.

Jake Wagner: And so there came the 3.0. Some of it's in this book, but a lot of it's to be discovered. That's why we're having this podcast and having these conversations.

Carol Anderson: Okay, right. Well, I was curious to know your take on that particular part, that it sounds like it's still up for definition then and exploration. But that's one of the great things about your dad is that the posing questions and causing us to think and ponder and explore possibilities and just have a better concept of how important the work of financial planners is and the potential of what it could mean in the lives of people and in our society, particularly as it becomes more and more complex.

Jake Wagner: Yeah, exactly. That's the part where to me that 3.0 stuff is beckoning and, yeah, that there is a greater societal need for us to understand our relationships with money better, and that just to read the back of the book because I think that it's just put really well... Oh, wait, no. It isn't here. It's in another part of our stuff.

Jake Wagner: But it's the financial planner's job to hold the client's hand as they walk through their financial lives and help be a guide and that there's this professional duty. To me, part of that 3.0 is what's our duty to the greater. Then also just reflecting on there's better and worse ways to do things, including our collective relationships with money. Just asking that question about what are better ways for us to relate and exchange value?

Jake Wagner: Value's such a charged word. It's both this thing that we can put in a piece of paper onto a chip and move around and there's numbers. But then there's also our family values and our personal values.

Carol Anderson: Right.

Jake Wagner: Where are you at on your definitions of the 1.0, 2.0, and 3.0?

Carol Anderson: Well, I am still struggling with that, but I do agree that the 1.0 was definitely what took place back in I think it was 1969 with Lauren Dunton and was a big step forward, for sure. Then as that evolved, works such as what your dad was doing along with George Kinder, I think, was really a big focus and a real entrée into this life planning perspective, which...

Carol Anderson: But prior to that, I think there was this... And probably because of organizations like Financial Planning Association that really brought together CFPs and challenged thinking and provided a lot of continuing education that the role of a financial planner was becoming much more client-centered and there was much more of an emphasis on doing work that was really in the best interest of the client.

Carol Anderson: Then I do believe that led to this realization that it's not just about the map and it isn't just about being honest. It's about really getting to know and understand the client and what their values, their own personal values, their own frame of reference that can really influence how they respond to money, their behaviors around money, how they feel about money, how they feel about their lives. That's going to influence their behaviors around money.

Carol Anderson: But the tricky part about that is that oftentimes that frame of reference is in the subconscious and it really has a very strong influence on clients, how they relate to money, but they're not maybe aware of that until someone helps them to become aware of it.

Carol Anderson: I think that's the role of what life planners has brought to this conversation, are different ways of navigating that conversation, to increase an individual's awareness about what really is important to them, how they do feel about money, what in their background is really influencing how they respond to money and what their hopes and their dreams and their fears are, just helping them to get more in touch with it so that all of that is really so much more important than what the actual numbers are in terms of what really influences an individual's sense of comfort around money, what they view as possible for them, and how they make decisions and the decisions they make really are in their own best interest.

Jake Wagner: Yeah. For me, in some ways, it's also a perspective shift where with the 1.0, it's, "Here, let's maximize the bottom line." That's one way to have the equations go. But then when we get into the life planning world, it's, "Let's balance these equations and let's have the bottom line be the best life that we can make for our clients."

Jake Wagner: Rather than having it be all about money, the discussion is about. "What is the life that you want to have? Okay, so we're going to work your financial resources and leverage what you've got and have a good strategy and play for the long term, and we're going to make that life for you." That's the role of the advisor is to help their clients realize the life of their dreams.

Carol Anderson: Yes, I agree. I agree. I think that your dad makes a good point that this is what requires in what we typically have called soft skills to be able to navigate those conversations. But he definitely hated the term "soft skills", for sure, because to have even the guts, I think, to ask these questions of clients and to care enough about them, to know what's going on inside of them is really... It's not soft at all. It's really-

Jake Wagner: Yeah. Well, that's what the title in the chapter is in the book, is there's nothing soft about it.

Carol Anderson: Right.

Jake Wagner: Yeah, I think that's the case right there. I don't think that he didn't like the term "soft skills". I think that he probably just didn't want people having the misconception that that meant it was easy or something.

Carol Anderson: Right, exactly. I agree.

Jake Wagner: This is one of our 30-second sponsorship slots. Your sponsorship would be featured here in our podcast. For more information, check out our sponsorship packet. Does life planning fit into 2.0 or do we think that is there more to 2.0 than just the life planning? Is that a part of what you're seeing?

Carol Anderson: Well, that's, I guess, a question that I was really struggling with. I think the more that I read Financial Planning 3.0 and try to gain an accurate picture of what your dad's perspective was on this, I do tend to feel that his concept of Financial Planning 3.0 did include life planning, but at a very committed level, let's put it that way, that it wouldn't be something that was just a front piece in the beginning of a client relationship, but it really permeated the whole lifespan of the client, and that you would be walking with them through all the ups and downs of life, all the many life transitions, helping them to get in touch with fears and concerns and spiritual needs and on and on and on not as a therapist, but just as a very well-informed guide, a very caring professional, and also realizing that all these aspects really influence how that individual relates to money.

Carol Anderson: I think that he would say that this is a really good foundation for Financial Planning 3.0, but it's the foundation. Then there's so much more to learn and explore.

Jake Wagner: Yeah, there is. There is. To me, part of this is like let's keep on exploring the area and just what is financial 2.0, because we do need this to be that solid foundation to get to the 3.0. Just to allude to it for folks just for a moment, though, 3.0 is about our societal relationships. It's how do we take it up the next notch is part of what dad was trying to say. That's what he was saying.

Carol Anderson: Right.

Jake Wagner: And so what does that contain? For me, there's better and worse ways for us to share our time with each other and to build society. So many people have these poor relationships with money and this vilification of it and that there are... One of the things dad said is that there's more good done in money every single day than charity work could ever do, and that we go and that we do our work and, with proper reciprocity, money comes into our life because of the works that we're doing.

Jake Wagner: As a society, we can choose to have a healthier relationship with money, too. It's important to address it with ourselves and with our clients. This has got to start one life at a time and each one of us addressing these questions personally and having that dark night of the soul. But we do need to also make sure to embrace the big picture, and we can't have it just be about our little bubble.

Carol Anderson: I would agree because what's going on in the world also very much influences the individual. It's just an interplay that constantly goes back and forth. I think a big point that your dad was making, too, that it's evolving so quickly that there is a lot that we have to do to prepare ourselves to address the complexities of our society and how they do influence our individual clients on a personal and family level.

Jake Wagner: Yeah, absolutely. One example I've thought of that I think is effective is the difference between us here in Portland... Folks, I'm sure you're listening from elsewhere. Carol and I are both in Portland, Oregon. It's just this wonderful, delightful little city with all of these little independent shops, small businesses, which have fair trade ingredients and wonderful service to the community, and it's beautiful.

Jake Wagner: But then there's also places I've lived where we're out in the suburbs. Folks are going and they're working for a Fortune 500 company, and so their money is coming from not their community. The way they're earning money might be global. Then when they go out to shop that there's Walmart and other big box stores. When they go and they spend their money, it goes right back into the same Fortune 500 companies.

Jake Wagner: There's a lot of ways in which it seems like what's going on is that the productivity from small town America is getting siphoned off into New York where those bigger salaries are, where the bigger picture of that corporate game just lives. Personally, I try to buy at a local shop, independent businesses. The closer I can be to the source of my food, the better because of the petroleum impact. I'm just trying to think about that. Just looking at the disparity between those two different situations is an example of different 3.0 realities.

Carol Anderson: But I think embedded in that as well is that it's a way... The questions that we ask so that we really can get in touch with the client's perception on all of that. Then to help them to evaluate how they are operating wherever they are... If it's not in Portland, Oregon, it's New York City... how the climate within which they live and operate, how that influences the decisions they make or the decisions perhaps they feel that they should be making, and to allow them the freedom to explore that and also the freedom to evaluate.

Carol Anderson: If they feel that there are changes they want to make in their relationship with money, in their relationship to society because of the decisions that they make about their money, what will those be? How can the financial planner support them in making those kinds of changes that will ultimately, hopefully...

Jake Wagner: Result in that bigger picture change.

Carol Anderson: Right. But more peace, more of a sense of connection to their money, more of a sense of purpose about how their money is used in their lives, the flow, the inflows and outflows of their personal resources and how that's expressed and if it feels in alignment with who they are and what's important to them.

Jake Wagner: Yeah. I like to think about it like a breath and a consistent inhale of good income that's fresh air, too. Then exhaling where you feel like you're not... It's easy to waste money. It's real easy. Having it go to what you actually care about is a big deal. Your money is your vote. That's how we're going to grow as a society. What we choose to spend money on is what's going to be what grows. That's part of why we need to ask those questions.

Carol Anderson: Right.

Jake Wagner: One of the things that I think is where dad is talking about the bigger picture of Financial Planning 2.0 more than life planning is also the fiduciary calling, that even if someone isn't a life planner or a holistic planner, comprehensive, there is additional liability, work. It limits the amount of clients that you can have just because of the amount of hours in a day.

Jake Wagner: Other folks want to be fiduciaries, too. It's a different way of doing it. What do you think those folks should know as they're working with their client?

Carol Anderson: Are you referring to those that are currently embracing the more Financial Planning 2.0 model?

Jake Wagner: Yeah. Well, or even just like the folks who... Okay, the fiduciary ruling is still in limbo. But all these folks who were about to have to obey the fiduciary standard and considered it as a result of that, but still they're a fee-based or a commission-based way of earning. But still I know fee-based folks who are also life planners. If you have 100 to 300 relationships, what are some ways that might help them connect more deeply when they are talking with clients and possibly make that change?

Carol Anderson: Well, I definitely think ongoing communication with clients is important, and not just when there is some kind of change that needs to be made in their portfolio. I think that is part of being a fiduciary is keeping very much in touch with the client's needs and expectations and transitions in their lives that require a financial response.

Carol Anderson: I think it's this much more holistic way of dealing a client and being in touch with all the transitions that they go through. But it's also in touch with how their own perceptions change. If they've had a friend that's experienced a loss of a loved one or some other kind of difficult life transition, and they all of a sudden become aware of the implications that could be in their own lives as well.

Carol Anderson: If you're not in touch with your clients, you're not going to be aware of how their thinking has changed and how their concerns have changed. There very well be many steps that the financial advisor could take to help alleviate these concerns, help them to prepare for whatever transition they're anticipating.

Jake Wagner: Especially when it's been a pretty long bull market. The market's been going up steadily for a while. I mean literally in the long run, it will always go up, but it's going to go down somewhere in here. The phone doesn't ring when the market's doing well. It rings when the market's doing poorly. Maybe just helping folks make sure they have those corrective measures through regular check-ins and intervals.

Carol Anderson: Right. It's so much more than just checking on how they're feeling about the market. It's definitely checking on what's going on in their lives and what are they thinking about and what experiences have they had that's really gotten their attention.

Carol Anderson: That gets us back to this conversation around the interior qualities and how there's a whole chapter in Financial Planning 3.0 about there's nothing soft about it and how we talk about the kinds of skills, that a more life-planning approach to financial planning requires soft skills, but his view that they're not soft at all, and to be able to address these more interior qualities of a client's life is really important and takes a lot.

Carol Anderson: Even if you are still operating in the Financial Planning 2.0 world, which is important, for sure, there definitely is a way to make sure that you are serving your client's best interest by knowing what's going on in their lives, what's going on with their family's lives, what's going on in their thinking.

Carol Anderson: There was this one section that I actually marked that I think really relates well to this. I'm just going to read it, if it's okay with you.

Jake Wagner: Oh, please.

Carol Anderson: It's talking about the stakes, "Money's interior qualities require us to deal with such notable softballs as death, illness, life purpose, critical choices, success, failure, primal fears, our relationships with God and living a spiritual, moral, ethical life, nightmares, vital personal relationships, parenting our children, caretaking of our elders, one's own aging processes, personal and social taboos, resource distribution, fundamental motions of fairness and how we play with each other, concepts of ethics and morality, politics and political systems, law, abuses of various forms including sexual, self-esteem, literal survival."

Carol Anderson: I mean that's a long list but a small list in regard to all the things that really influence an individual's concepts about money and that are related to how they use their financial resources. [crosstalk 00:44:02].

Jake Wagner: All the way back to their literal survival.

Carol Anderson: Correct.

Jake Wagner: Wow! Yeah.

Carol Anderson: That means being in tune, boy. It's being able to ask the right questions so that you know what issues they are grappling with. They come to us with really preconceived notions about what financial planners want to know about them. They're just going to rudely spit that out unless there's a way to do that qualitative data-gathering in a conversational way or through the use of tools that helps them to reflect and they become more aware of what's going on inside of themselves.

Jake Wagner: There are some great tools out there, yours included.

Carol Anderson: Thank you.

Jake Wagner: Yeah. But, yeah, and it's amazing what some of the different tools and efficiencies that there are out there, but something you shared with me earlier, and I appreciate, you said to take caution because when folks are filling out these forms, that the real information that you're hoping for folks to get from your questionnaires and all your Money Quotient partners is it's about body language, maybe it's about lip-biting, maybe it's about just seeing the confusion on their face as they try to figure it out and do and don't and then do.

Jake Wagner: You don't get that if it's an online questionnaire. That is important. As a digital marketer, I love to try to figure out how to make things better with the technology. But it's also important to remember just the relevance of that human touch.

Carol Anderson: There's a lot of science, too, behind the importance of writing our responses in longhand as well. There's some... How's that word again? Kinesthetic magic in terms of a person reflecting on a question and then formulating a response in their minds and then writing it out. Then the next step is if they actually share that response by speaking.

Carol Anderson: In terms of a relationship with a financial planner, then when they share these responses with you, it's like they hear them say things that they didn't even know they knew or knew they cared about, or make connections, until they started to say it, didn't even realize existed.

Carol Anderson: The use of questions is so important and so magical, and particularly if the intention around using the questions isn't to lead the clients in any particular way other than increasing their own self-awareness. I mean it's a real gift to give a client is this opportunity to learn more about themselves.

Jake Wagner: Can you share a little bit about some of the research, specifically on... You're talking about the process of doing long-handed and longer answer. Can you tell us more about that?

Carol Anderson: Well, I think that in the coaching world, they've learned that quite a bit as well. Gosh, I was introduced to this way back when. My background was actually a preschool teacher. For a while I worked in a preschool that was pretty progressive in terms of incorporating a really excellent reading methodology very in the early grades. It was introducing it to preschoolers, three years old, and it was called the Writing Road to Reading.

Carol Anderson: They would teach the sounds of the letters, so like with an A, it has five different sounds. As they showed the kids the A, then they would speak all the five sounds that it would make. Then they would also form the letter and write it.

Carol Anderson: Really these pathways to the brain were just really... What's the word I want? Cemented. To actually learn how to put that then into the next step of actually reading words, they used actual children's literature. They didn't use little workbooks or whatever. They actually used children's literature that really engaged the little kids because the stories were interesting. Because of all this practice they had about the sounds and putting them together to make words, they quickly learned how to read.

Carol Anderson: That was one of the times that this whole connection between all the senses, how it really supports how we learn and how we perceive, and then just other things that I've learned over the years, has just really emphasized that to me and helped me to become even more passionate about the importance of that, the personal experience and how it becomes a very much of an inner experience that really supports the learning and the self-awareness.

Carol Anderson: There's also one of the theories that I've become quite enamored with, and it's actually an outgrowth in the positive psychology field, is self-determination theory and the importance of understanding a client's values based on whether you can categorize them as extrinsic values or intrinsic values, the extrinsic values being more outward like increasing wealth or increasing fame. Then the intrinsic values are the ones about personal growth or creativity or helping others, these types of things.

Carol Anderson: The individuals that set goals based on either... Well, if they set goals based on more of an intrinsic value framework and then they pursue those goals and actually succeed, their level of life satisfaction and sense of well-being does not necessarily become greater, become elevated, grow in any way. In fact, oftentimes with the pursuit of those goals, there's more symptoms of depressive disorders and so forth. But those that choose life goals based on more of the intrinsic values, then as they pursue those goals and achieve them, their sense of life satisfaction and happiness grows.

Carol Anderson: I think a big goal of our process, and I think a lot of people involved in the financial life planning perspective, is to help clients get more in touch with what are your true values. For many people, it really is based that those true values are more of an intrinsic nature, but they've lost touch with that and how they can really base their lives on their intrinsic values and then use their resources in such ways to support and express those intrinsic values. That's where I think the real peace and happiness can come and the desire to really do good in the world.

Jake Wagner: Is it a happy quotient?

Carol Anderson: It could be. It could be. It's not to say life is just all roses, for sure. I think a lot of those things in that list that I just read were about there's a lot of challenges in life that have to be addressed. Again, that's where this more financial professional that's really dedicated to their clients. They're really willing to go through those rough periods alongside of their client and help them to make those necessary life transitions and to make them as successful as possible, even under the more difficult situations.

Jake Wagner: Again, successful clients lead to a successful advisor, right?

Carol Anderson: Right. I do. I believe that. I believe that.

Jake Wagner: I'm sure. I think that also is obviously true in an AUM model. But I think it's true for the other ways of charging them [crosstalk 00:54:29].

Carol Anderson: I do, too. I do, too. I think it's all a matter of intention in the advisor's heart, in their own frame of reference. I think there are definitely a few models or compensation models that better support and better communicate the fiduciary standard. But I think an advisor can operate under any type of fee structure and really be a wonderful 3.0 planner.

Jake Wagner: Yeah. Yeah, me too. Frankly, the world's counting on it.

Carol Anderson: Right. We need it, for sure. We need it, for sure.

Jake Wagner: My dad always said that financial planning is the most very important profession in the 21st century.

Carol Anderson: And I totally agree with that. It's getting more important all the time. I think that's the part. Those that have really embraced and implemented a financial life planning process and perspective to their practices, and it becomes a part of the whole client relationship, like I said, not just a front piece, they've just brought the whole financial planning profession leaps and bounds, but there's so many more challenges ahead that the planners need to prepare for and understand that I think this larger 3.0 perspective will really help to prepare us for those challenges.

Jake Wagner: Exactly. That's why this is such important work and so important for us to consider to have these conversations and also for the audience to listen to. Thank you, folks, for listening to this episode. Carol, do you think we have more to share with the audience? This is right about a good length for what we're hoping for.

Carol Anderson: Yeah, it feels good to me.

Jake Wagner: Okay.

Carol Anderson: If you're good, I'm good.

Jake Wagner: Well, folks, I hope you are, too, and I hope that you enjoyed this conversation. Welcome to the first episode of the What Is Finology Podcast. On this episode of the show, we've had Carol Anderson from Money Quotient, myself, Jacob Wagner from, well, in this case, WorthLiving, Dick Wagner's firm. With that, we'll see you on the next episode of What Is Finology.

Carol Anderson: Thanks all.


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